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Dialogue with and
atheist - Part 1 - by P.K.Odendaal - October 2012
This is a continuation of my previous dialogues, and like
the others, this is also a hypothetical dialogue. Not that it is fictional. It
is a summary of all the discussions and arguments I have had with atheists and
agnostics over many years, and of the principles of their unbelief written in
many books I have read. In this dialogue my own words will be prefixed by the
acronym GLC meaning a God Loving Creature.
what do you believe in?
Atheist:I can better tell you what I do not believe
in. I am an atheist and I do not believe in God. I only believe in things that I
can see or observe - things material and physical. Things which I do not
believe in is anything else. I do not believe in the meta-physical world or
GLC:So you do not believe in consciousness
or emotion or love.
Atheist:No, I believe in those things, but they are
all functions of the brain which is a physical thing. That's why people who
treat human bodies are called physicians.
GLC:Ok, I understand partly, so let's engage
in this game. Which playing field do you wish to play on?
this one here - you can see it is quite level.
GLC:Yes, I see. But why is it so short and
so wide*. The ones I usually play on are long and narrow - much like a rugby
field with half-lines, quarter-lines, goal-lines, dead-lines and goal posts in
the form of an H - and of course some flags on the sides.
7:13Enter ye in at the strait
gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to
destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:)
Atheist:Oh, I do know that sort of field, but I do
not believe in all those other areas. I only play on my side of the goal area.
That is why it looks so short and wide. You are looking from the wrong
perspective - along the breadth of the field. You can measure it. It has the
same dimensions as your field, but it only has my own goal area. I am not
responsible for what happens in the rest of the field - in fact I do not even
believe in it, and I don't care about it.
GLC:But, I think that is quite
unsatisfactorily to only play on a part of the field. Why do you not believe in
the other parts which contain the meta-physical and the spiritual world?
does not exist. I cannot see or feel it.
GLC:What do you
see in these two back corners of this field?
Atheist:Oh, those. Yes, I see square flags with large
round holes in them. It looks quite nice. Oh, yes, and now I see - it is the
GLC:Yes. And do you see how the colour and
form of that hole changes as the wind blows? When the wind blows quite strong,
as now, the hole is serrated, much like a crinkle cut chip.
Atheist:Yes, it is beautiful.
GLC:The colours of this hole is even more
beautiful. Can you see that while the flag moves around, the colour of the hole
changes from green (grass) to blue (sky) and sometimes even white (clouds).
Atheist:Yes, I can see how its colour changes all the
GLC:Can I let you in on a secret?
Atheist:Yes, I like secrets.
GLC:That hole does not exist!
Atheist:I do not believe you!
GLC:For sure. I am a physicist, and I can
tell you that that hole does not exist as a physical or material thing.
Atheist:But still I can see it and it is beautiful. I
think it is caused by the form of the flag, which is physical, much like my
consciousness is a function or property of my brain which is physical.
GLC:You have a point ... a very shaky one
... but you have one. The words used for this are figure and (back)ground. The
flag is the figure and the hole is the ground. If you are someone, like me, who
believes not only in physical things, but also in meta-physical things, not
only in material things, but also in concepts, not only in consciousness but
also in things which are called something and nothing, you will see the hole as
the figure and the sky, grass and clouds as ground. But of course, you cannot
see it that way, because something that does not exist physically cannot be a
Atheist:I think you are leading me into a trap.
GLC:Yes, I think so too. If you do not
believe in all things, you will end up in various traps. Of course, then you
will say that you do not see it, as you should have said here when we started
to look at the hole.
Look at this attached picture. Isn't
it a beautiful vase?
Atheist:I see no vase. I only see two people shouting
at each other.
GLC:Yes, I see that too, but I always look
at the bright (white) side of things, but it seems to me that you only look at
the dark (black) side of things.
Can I tell you another secret?
Atheist:But, no surprises this time.
GLC:It is even a bigger surprise, but hold
In a certain sense that hole we are
seeing is anti-matter, if it was caused by matter, like a large bullet, passing
through it and tearing the fabric. So tell me - do you also believe in anti-matter
- or, are you also an anti-materialist?
Atheist:Yes, I believe in anti-matter - it has been
discovered by scientists. For every million atoms of matter, one atom of
anti-matter is created, but it is totally unstable in the presence of other matter.
GLC:So it just disappears immediately?
GLC:So what does it become? Because, if
matter disappears it turns itself into another form, like energy. So, where did
this anti-matter go?
Atheist:It ate another atom of matter so that both
matter and antimatter disappear.
GLC:You are sure it does not become a
substance that has no mass, like energy, or an idea in the meta-physical world?
Atheist:I do not talk about the meta-physical world -
it does not exist - it is just an idea - a very far-fetched one.
GLC:But why can't anti-matter be anti-physical
or meta-physical as the word is used?
Atheist:I don't like your tricks. See you another
time when you are in a more realistic and practical mood.