A dialogue between Moses and Aristotle - Part 2



A dialogue between Moses (1392 - 1272 B.C.) and Aristotle (384 - 322 B.C.) - from Transcripts of their debate.
Written by P.K.Odendaal - 16 Feb. 2011


PART 2
The Logical proof system.
Moses :   And what are your theories and observations ?
Aristotle: Man is the crown and centre piece of the universe and thus his position must be in the middle. And what is more - anybody can see that the stars,sun and moon moves around the earth.
Moses:    Wow !! You invented Logic, which was used for the next 2 200 years, and you tell me that you made these important and wild statements without the scientific and mathematical process of your own Logic. Your notions for the centrality of earth will not cut the mustard in any intellectual argument being, as you term it, an irrelevant conclusion.
Aristotle: No, the system is quite easy, although I did not apply it to my 'wild statements' as you allege. I did use one of my irrelevant conclusions to prove that one. But the Logical process is like this :
               You start with an axiom and then prove subsequent logical conclusions, like in this most simple one.
                A : Two things that are equal to the same are equal to each other. (Axiom)
                B : Two sides of a triangle are things that are equal to the same.
                Z : It then follows logically that the two sides of this triangle is equal to each other.
Moses :   And what do you do, when people agree to the correctness of A and B, and do not accept Z ?
Aristotle: Yes, they are of a special kind, and you will never prove anything to them, as the axiom A is generally not provable in our own framework, neither the conclusion drawn in Z, and that is why we call it an axiom and logic, but still A is always true in our framework, having been proven to be so over many millenia, like the axiom 1+1=2. Nobody has ever been able to prove that this is true, and this is what the Atheists uses to unprove God. God is an axiom (in this sense) and cannot be proven.
Moses:    The next thing they wil ask , is: who made God.
Aristotle: That is, of course an even more absurd and unanswerable question. The best thing to do with such is question, is to ask the person to unask the question. There are things that we just cannot know while confined to Cubic Land*. It will only be, when we move one day into the fourth and other multidimensional spaces or domains, that we will access these spaces wherein in will be provable.
                As a very simple example I might cite this : A car exists, but it will never know what a traffic jam is - a traffic jam does not exist in the dimension/space/domain of the car.

( * Note from Scribe : See my discussion on the different dimensions here http://pkodendaal.blogspot.com/2010/12/whats-in-dream.html
Here is also an example of such a stubborn person : taken from a part of the dialogue between Achilles and Tortoise by Douglas Hofstadter.
"Let's make that quite clear. I accept A and B. Suppose I still refused to accept Z?"
"Then Logic would take you by the throat, and force you to do it!" Achilles triumphantly replied. "Logic would tell you, 'You can't help yourself. Now that you've accepted A and B, you must accept Z!' So you've no choice, you see" - a statement which is also debatable)
Moses:    And have you used this system to prove that the earth resides in the centre of the universe?
Aristotle: No, but I must admit, it was not so well developed and there were not so many axioms, when I made those statements. But anyone can make a mistake.
 

The delusions and enchantments of man.
Moses:    This was not a mistake. It was a delusion, and knowing that you were so clever, mankind believed that you were right for 2 200 years when it was replaced by an even greater delusion called the Darwinian Delusion. In fact, you and Darwin's delusions were more than that. It created such a religious following with egoists such as St. Thomas of Aquinas, Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins, that it became an enchantment, enchanting even these mentioned scholars, and everyone who listened to them.
(Note from the Scribe : I was also enchanted by the delusion of Carl Sagan. Was it not for the grace of God who exposed these enchantments to me, I would still have been enchanted. My vindication of this came also from the tragic drama of his death where he admitted to being an atheist.)
Aristotle: But I am not responsible for people's unbelief in God just for publishing an unproved theory or statement - it is being done daily as the headlines of the twenty first century media.
Moses:    Of course you are responsible - why did you publish and teach such hogwash ? You were the direct cause for this delusion, or don't you believe in your own inventions of cause and effect. Some of the people you enchanted, landed in everlasting damnation like Carl Sagan. Even on his deathbed (of cancer) he maintained his inability to believe, saying, that even if he wished to*, he cannot do it.
(* Heb 12:17  For ye know how that afterward, when he (people such as Cain, Esau, Ahitophel and Judas) would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.)

Aristotle: It was not my intention to do this. But while we are at it, why did you select these three very different people with very divergent viewpoints to drive this at me ?
Moses:    Because they were all bulldogs (serious components of an ideology) for your cause, for different egoististical reasons and motives, although each one barked up the wrong tree. I will leave out Thomas Huxley, Darwin's bulldog, as he conforms in many ways to Richard Dawkins's venomous attacking proclivity on God and all Christians and everything religious. However all had one thing in common - they meddled with things that were too far above their intellect. At least two of them never even got to the starting blocks of wisdom *.
( * Pro 1:7  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.)
Aristotle: I have heard of these gentlemen, but tell me more of them.

 The folly of St.Thomas of Aquinas.
Moses:    I will start with St. Thomas of Aquinas. He was in the midst of the Averoes debate and had to find a scapegoat, or shall I say a Judas Goat to enter mainstream Cathholic Theology. He was very successful in introducing the Aristotelian method of enquiry and reply and rational thought into Catholic Doctrine. You know that method made famous by your teacher, Socrates, called the Socratic Method.
                He argued that there can be only one universal truth, and if the Bible was true and the your statements were true, then they should say the same, and he spent a large part of this life trying to reconcile these two. Of course, you know now, after reading Gallileo, who by the way, was also a victim of servere persecution because he did not believe in your false philosophy. Giordano Bruno was even burned at the stake (1600 A.D.) for his opposition to your false philosophies.
                How could he reconcile or synthesize two such diamterically opposite theories as the Bible and your teachings were. Serves him right that he was rejected by that church for some time because of this, but more because of the fact that he introduced rational thought who was not a strongpoint of the Inquisition, they neede no excuses or alibis to torture and burn people. In fact, it is quite an eye opener that his tutor, Albertas Magnus, called him a dumb ox, relieving me of some unsavoury comments here.
                If we digress momentarily, while he lies at the stake (I mean, waiting for my criticism) , we may ask a very pertinent question. He was an admirer of Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.) and he read his confessions. Did he not understand the enchantment Augustine suffered for many years, from listening to the carnal and rational arguments of the Manicheans, until he met the one true God ?
               Be it as it may, I have respect for him and it is clear he did it in good faith. What baffles me however, is that he became a Saint (whatever that honourable position may benefit him, contrary to scripture) and is now a patron saint for many people. As I understand it, you must just ask the Virgin Mary something in his name*, and it will be granted you - what an abomination ?
               He is said to be patron saint of academics, against storms, against lightning, apologists, book sellers, Catholic academies, Catholic schools, Catholic universities, chastity, colleges, learning, lightning, pencil makers, philosophers, publishers, scholars, schools, storms, students, theologians, universities, University of Vigo. If you have problems with any of these, you might want to talk to him or go and see him - what a farce.
                A man is judged by his own words** so just hear some of his last words : On 6 December 1273 he experienced a divine revelation which so enraptured him that he abandoned the Summa, saying that it and his other writing were so much straw in the wind compared to the reality of the divine glory. He died four months later while en route to the Council of Lyons, overweight and with his health broken by overwork.
                At last he has met our Saviour Jesus Christ, but there are many of these who miss the chance.
 (* Joh 16:23  And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.)
(** Luk 19:22  And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant.)
 

The speculation and arrogance of Carl Sagan.
Aristotle: And what makes Carl Sagan so special, that you mention him ?
Moses:    That makes for an even easier reply. He was the first one (in his book Cosmos) to do away totally of the concept of a Creator, by cooking up a philosophy, delusion and enchantment on the basis of publishing a totally fictional work and making it sound technical by giving it some legitimity from his Grand posiiton at NASA.
                He thought that he could prove that there was no intelligent design in the creation of the universe. He then set out to try and explain how everything works, and although some of his explanations were feasible, most were fictional and guesswork.
                He was under the enchantment thta if he could explain how everything works, he could eliminate God from the equation, but the real point is : Can anyone on earth make anything that has the properties, as the inanimate things which were created, has. 
               To make it even more simplistic, so that those super scientists can also understand it: An apple falls by gravity - yes we all know that, but can you make gravity, can you make an apple and can you force it to obey the gravity you made !!!!
               These question I wish to ask are not new - they are as old as Job. All these questions* were asked by God when he took Job to task for being so clever. 
                Posterity will also laugh at his uncooked theories, same as they do at yours.
(*Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, v:2  Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? v:3  Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. v:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. v:5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? v:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; v:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? v:8  Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? v:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, v:10  And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, v:11  And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? v:12  Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; v:13  That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? v:14  It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. v:15  And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. v:16  Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? v:17  Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? v:18  Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. v:19  Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, v:20  That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? v:21  Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? v:22  Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, v:23  Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? v:24  By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth? v:25  Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; v:26  To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; v:27  To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? v:28  Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? v:29  Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? v:30  The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. v:31  Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? v:32  Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? v:33  Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? v:34  Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? v:35  Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are? v:36  Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? v:37  Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven, v:38  When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? v:39  Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions, v:40  When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait? v:41  Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.)
Aristotle: But I thought that everyone recognised the large contribution I made to the Scientific method, Physics, Motion, Causality (cause and effect), Optics, Logic, Metaphysics, Biology and Medicine and the Classification of all living things.
 Moses:   You mean the challenge you set for posterity - to prove you wrong ? I think the main point is, yes, they all know your speculations quite well, and it took them 2 200 years to prove you wrong on almost all of those counts.
                To come back to Carl Sagan. He was trying to advance science (and get a large grant in the process for his research effort), but it was all egoistically inspired, hoping that he would one day be known as a scientific prophet who forecasted the end of the world by mankind itself with war and nuclear bombs. Why all this trouble ? He could just have read the Revelation of  John, a vision he was shown 2 000 years ago - and I bet you, he did not work for NASA.

 Richard Dawkins joins the forces of Satan.
Aristotle: So was Dawkins right ? He so ardently advocated Atheism, even buying poster space on buses in London, to make it full of Atheist slogans, and publishing a book - The God Delusion.
Moses:    This is the worst kind of delusion that one can suffer from. He was a Christian, who turned to the so called rationality of Science, then to the seduction of the Christians and then to the prosecution of the Saints. This is the same technique Satan uses, because he is such a venomous and jealous enemy of God, which perfectly fits Hawkins's motives. One cannot have respect for someone who goes out to deceive the inhabitants of the world with no other motive than to do damage to his biggest enemy - God. He is no more an atheist than the Satan is an atheist*.
(* Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.)
Aristotle: I think I understand a little bit better, although I must admit that religion and faith cannot be understood on a rational basis.