A dialogue between Moses and Aristotle - Part 3

A dialogue between Moses (1392 - 1272 B.C.) and Aristotle (384 - 322 B.C.) - from Transcripts of their debate.
Written by P.K.Odendaal - 16 Feb. 2011

PART 3: Is there a proof for the existence of God ?

Moses:    Now that we know your logical system, can you help us to make a logical conclusion between free will and a knowledge of the existence of  God.

Aristotle: Yes, here it is (if I understand you correclty):

                A : God wanted to make man like himself to be friends with, and to converse with him and to appoint him to reign over the universe as a king and priest.

                B : If man had to be like God, he had to have free will.

                C : If man knew for sure, by scientific analysis, rational thought or deduction, that there was a God, who was righteous and who punished sin, then man would have been under duress and fear of punishment and eternal damnation, thereby inhibiting his free will.

                Z : QED - it easily follows that God cannot reveal himself in any scientific or rational way, if He wants people to exercise their Free Will unhindered

Moses:    Some may argue that I depart from false premises - that of God existing, which is an invalid criticism, as I am not here to argue that God does exist, only that if He existed, we would not have been able to prove His existence in a logical way, without losing or impairing our free will, which is the most wonderful part of Creation..

               That is the crux of the matter - very well put, clever Ari !! No wonder you were so admired by all.

Aristotle: Thanks, but I must also draw your attention to the work of Kurt Gödel - his Incompleteness Theorem.

Moses:    And how does it work ?

Aristotle: In 1931 Kurt Gödel published his Incompleteness theorem. In that article he proved that for any computable axiomatic system that is powerful enough to describe the arithmetic of the natural numbers, that

                A. If the system is consistent, that it cannot be complete.

                B. The consistency of the axions cannot be proven within the system.

Moses:    Now I can see how God implemented such a system in our framework whereby we cannot prove his existence, thus protecting the integrity of our free will. I find that wonderfully insightful.
               I wish to conclude this part of our dialogue with this last observation :

               I must bring your attention to the wonderful aspect driven by faith - the one that God does in fact reveal Himself (but not proving it) to people who search for Him. God does this in many ways and on a level that that person can understand, if he allows himself to have faith. In my case it was by way of a burning bramble bush - can you imagine it !!!. You can read my whole story in Exodus.

Aristotle: You almost persuaded me to be a Christian *.

( * Act 26:26  For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner. v:27  King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. v:28  Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. v:29  And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, .... )

So what happens when the end of the world comes ?

Moses :   Yes, and do you know the Christians shall rule over the universe.
Aristotle: I thought that they would only become Angles and live in Heaven.

Moses:    No, Angels have no free will, but Christians having free will, can therefore rule and minister as Kings and Priests, a thing the Angels cannot do. Jesus did not take the form of an Angel when He was resurrected - no - he took the form of His bretren*.

(* Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. v:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.)

Aristotle: Sorry to change the subject Moses, as I see you have been getting somewhat carried away and this is getting too complicating for me - maybe we can pursue this part later.
               What is all this talk about Exodus II.

Moses:    If you had cared to read my history, as you should have, you would have known that I led the Israelites out of Egypt and out of bondage of the ruler of that country, Pharoah, but it took ten plagues to get him to let God's people go. He had dominion over Egypt, but God had dominion the Israelites, over His own people.

                This Exodus I also symbolizes Exodus II where the Earth will have to let God's people be freed from the bondage of Satan, who has dominion over this earth, having swindled **  it from Adam and Eve *. As it took ten plagues to get Pharoah so far as to  the people go, it will also take ten plagues (the 7 Seals and the 3 Woes) to get Satan to let go of God's people. 

                When I died (although I have been resurrected after the argument with Satan), there was an argument between Satan and Michael, the Archangel, for possession of my body. As Satan had dominion over Earth and God had dominion over my body and soul, you can understand what furore there was over my body, and this is the same type of argument that will rep;eat itself at the end of time. Whereas Michael rebuked the Satan to get my body, it will not be enough at the end of time for Michael to rebuke him, to let God's people go - no - Michael will this time have to wage war against Satan*** and Christ Himself will join in the battle ****.

(* Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.)

(** 2Pe 2:19  ... , they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. )

(*** Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,)

 (**** Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  v:12 12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. v:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. v:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.)

 Aristotle: But why were you chosen to be the leader of Exodus II ?

Moses:    Because I successfully executed Exodus I, and it is the policy of God to use experienced people (in the spiritual world) to do His work. If He has given you some task and you execute it successfully, He gives you anbs even greater one*.

               You will notice from my Biography (that part of the Bible), that I was very reluctant to be the leader of Exodus I, but I sort of felt that I would redeem myself if I accepted the leadership of Exodus II without any backchat. Of course I cannot redeem myself, as everything I do is by the grace of God, but somehow , the fact that God chose me for this new Exodus inspires me to do even better.

(* Mat 25:20  And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. v:21  His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.)

Aristotle: But why is God so intent on destroying the earth, the ungodly and everything on the planet? He could just have renewed it into the New Earth ?

Moses:    He had to destroy the legacy of the Fall of Adam and everything that was contaminated by Satan due tot his seduction, including the people who were born of Satanic blood, called the Nephilim*.

(* Gen 6:4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. v:5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. v:6  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. v:7  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Aristotle: You have indeed brought wisdom to my knowledge, for which I thank you.

Moses:    And you have brought knowledge* to my wisdom*, for which I wish I thank you.

(* Pro 1:7  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.)

Aristotle: I hope we can meet up for some further discussion and debate later, when you are not so busy resettling the Israelites. I really want to know how you moved with your consecrated body faster than the speed of light, on your way here, as I can see you are now again flesh and blood.

               Is it true that it has something to do with Einstein's theory depicted in this the  limerick of someone who understood a little of it :

                There was a young lady, Miss Bright
                Who could move much faster than light
                She went out one day, in a relative way
                And came back the previous night.

 Moses:    Whether it is his theory or anything else, I do not know. All I know* is that God brought us out of Egypt, as He has brought us here. I know there are many intricate scientific theories about how we came here, but for me - there can be miracles, if I believe - the other method is to complicated. Maybe I can sing you the song we sang as we left Egypt.

There can be miracles when you believe.

Many nights we've prayed
With no proof anyone could hear
In our hearts a hopeful song
We barely understood

Now we are not afraid
Although we know there's much to fear
We were moving mountains long
Before we knew we could
There can be miracles, when you believe
Though hope is frail, it's hard to kill
Who knows what miracles you can achieve
When you believe, somehow you will
You will when you believe
In this time of fear
When prayers so often prove(s) in vain
Hope seems like the summer birds
Too swiftly flown away
Yet now I'm standing here
My heart's so full I can't explain
Seeking faith and speaking words
I never thought I'd say

There can be miracles, when you believe
Though hope is frail, it's hard to kill
Who knows what miracles you can achieve
When you believe, somehow you will
You will when you believe

They don't (always happen) when you ask
And it's easy to give in to your fears
But when you're blinded by your pain
Can't see your way straight throught the rain
(A small but )still resilient voice
Says (hope is very near)
There can be miracles
When you believe
Though hope is frail
It's hard to kill
Who knows what miracles,you can achieve
When you believe, somehow you will
somehow you will
You will when you believe

(* Joh 9:24  Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. v:25  He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. v:26  Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? v:27  He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? v:28  Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. v:29  We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. v:30  The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. v:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.)

 Aristotle: Thanks Moses, see you later. I hope I can find this Apollo Luceus somewhere. He will have a piece of my mind !!!

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